I'd like to introduce Don Hart to you. And it's pretty interesting when you think about the kind of men that are here at this weekend. There's really a diverse group. Here we've got a guy here who he is he's a cattleman he's an attorney he's a homeschool father he's a pastor you you have you have men here who have very interesting lives and who are operating on a number of fronts. And Don Hart, Don Hart is just one of the neatest men that I know.

He and I had the privilege this last year of traveling to Iwo Jima, Hawaii, Kauai, doing all kinds of things together, and just conferences and shooting film and all kinds of things. Surfing, just it was the most amazing time that I've ever had with another man. Skin diving on Kauai. And I just commend this man to you as truly a man's man, truly one who has a vision of God in his mind for his family and for his church. Don Hart has labored for the Church of Jesus Christ, and I'm so grateful that he's here.

Don and I are both board members of Vision Forum, and so our hearts really do beat the same. Really just about everything. So it's a little scary to get us together because we agree on so much but I'm just so thankful for Don Hart and Don's going to come and talk to us about one of the most important things that needs to happen in the church today and that is that it be governed properly. How something is governed really does determine the direction that it'll take and this this subject that he's going to engage us in now will I think will just be a very helpful capstone as we move on into the evening and take a break and then come back again with Vody at seven o'clock. Would you welcome Don Hart.

As always, Scott has been too kind by way of introduction. Had it been a blessing, wow, just the last two talks, after Vody's talk, I was just ready to run through a wall. Have you ever... What a manly talk. Do the right thing.

What an incredible blessing to hear from a man with that vision, to hear from a prophet of the Lord who thunders the truth to the church. Who can stand before you? Square your shoulders, lift your head, and act like a man. What a message. And what a message from James McDonald, a Renaissance man who's not afraid to decry the evils of Taco Bell and extol the virtues of Whataburger.

A burger. You don't meet such a man in Texas, especially just every day. A man who has the hearts of his daughters. I don't know how he read that poem without getting choked up. I have our time thinking about it now without getting choked up.

A man who has the hearts of his daughters. You know, that says more about a man than most of the things that we regard so highly as we think about their character and their gifts and the purposes that the Lord may have for them. And you know, I appreciate these talks, I appreciate Scott's talk on the sufficiency of scripture because these talks don't just curse the darkness. They light a candle. If you don't understand the problem after listening to Vody's talk, then I can't help you.

We see it, don't we? It's really what's brought us here and what's brought us together. And yet we're not here just to talk about the problems and not offer any solutions. We're not here just to curse the darkness. We're here to light candles.

And so We hear from James McDonald about these things that are necessary to have the hearts, not just of our daughters, but of our sons as well. And we hear from Vody about what it is to be a man and to act manly and to quit ourselves like men. We hear from Scott about the sufficiency of God's holy word and that's our foundation, isn't it? That's our foundation. Why are we here?

Well, we have talked about the problem. We perceive the crisis in the church, don't we? It seems so obvious After hearing the talks that we've heard so far, it seems strange that anyone could fail to perceive the problems in the practices of the church. It seems impossible that anyone could fail to understand that the fruit we're seeing has to be the result of wrong methodology. Not that I could add anything to what Vody said, and I pity the man who stood prepared to defend the practices of the church, which he described earlier, but how did we get there?

How did we get here? We've talked about the fact that it's just a recent phenomenon. It's something that's really only occurred over the last few decades, these changes in our philosophy and our practice. How did we get here? Maybe that's relevant.

Perhaps we got here because we forgot that God is a God not just of the result. Oh, he's absolutely a God of the result. Those things are all in his hands. But he's also a God of the method by which those results are accomplished. And all the good intentions in the world, coupled with ungodly methodology, will result in bad fruit.

They'll result in bad fruit. You know, we've got to talk about the problem. We must. And yet we have to be careful in how we talk about the problem, don't we? We're talking about the church.

We're talking about the bride of Christ. We're talking about one of the most precious things imaginable, bought with the most precious blood imaginable. We are talking about a great treasure in God's economy, his church. And folks, I really do not believe that those engaged in the practices which have resulted in such disgraceful fruit, those who have been involved in making decisions that have brought the church to the lamentable condition that brings us all together here. I don't think they did those things with bad intentions.

Perhaps at times they did. But I don't think that we can assume of our brethren that that's the case. We're talking about the church and there's no arguing with the fruit of the modern church approach that's been described here today. Where did it come from? How did we get here?

It comes from not thinking through methodology. It comes from embracing and accepting a philosophy of social evolution. Something that you're familiar with. I see you nodding. The church has simply embraced the approaches of the modern education system.

Where did those come from? If you cared to just read a little bit, the architects of that educational system weren't shy about what they were doing and why they were doing it. They believed in something called social evolution. They believed that society had to evolve because they didn't believe in godly methods. What has to happen in order for a society to evolve in their thinking?

Well, the generation that we're talking about now has to forsake the ways of the generation that came before. There must be some way for social evolution to work in which the beliefs of children are divorced from the beliefs of their parents because after all, if that doesn't happen, then how can they evolve according to this way of thinking? How can they go beyond their parents if they just believe exactly what their parents believe? Does that make sense? And so it was really very intentional.

You read the writings of Dewey, of the architects of modern education. You see exactly what they were up to. Why age segregation was so critical to that process. Even the one-room schoolhouse away from the parents wasn't effective, because the younger sister was listening to the older brother who was listening to the older sister who was listening to the older brother, and they were all still together, And that family influence was too strong. And it had to be broken.

And so they had to separate, not just from the parents, but from even the siblings. And so what did the church do? Like it did in Sunday school, it simply bought into methodology, I think often, without really giving it much thought. But bought in it did, and we've seen the fruit, haven't we? Divorce, immorality, children forsaking the faith in droves, families ostracized for desiring to protect the innocence of their children and preserve the discipleship relationship that scripture describes ought to exist there.

I drive past a billboard every time I head into Austin from my home out northwest of there. It's about 10 miles from my house. It's a billboard that a church has paid to have in place. And the message there varies. But it's consistent in theme.

Right now it says it's all about you. Before that it said come as you are. The theme is The seeker, the worshiper is more important than the one worshipped. That's the thing. That's the fruit.

Why has the church lost sight of the importance of doing God's business, God's way? Why has the church failed to bear in mind that the method matters? Why is the church in this condition? Again, if we don't understand the problem at this point, I don't think we're capable of understanding it. It's clear.

The question is why. Jesus said in Luke chapter 6 verse 40, everyone after he has been fully trained will be like his teacher. Hosea said like people like priests. In chapter four, verse nine, You can't talk about the problems in the church without talking about the problems in its leadership. Everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

Is there a need to return to the biblical church government? And I think that the teacher who is well trained will be like his teacher. Is there a need to return to biblical church government? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, is there ever.

And Vody has talked about it. And I appreciate so much what he has said about it. And I, like James, am happy to, I feel like I did hand him my notes, and I'm happy to yield some of my time to his passionate explanation of the problems that exist in the church, and They exist in leadership. It is absolutely undeniable that if we talk about the problems of the church, we can't fail to understand that those result from deficiencies in leadership. It just absolutely follows.

And there are some wonderful resources to help us understand biblical church government. The first and best one that I know of is the Bible. It's absolutely fantastic. And you know what? It's really clear on this point.

I was in a church for the better part of my Christian life which did not have biblical church leadership. And I was just blissfully ignorant, going my way. Sometimes things that seem so clear in scripture cause us to wonder how we could become confused about them. Well, I can just tell you from my own experience that I got perhaps a little confused, but more than that, misled, would probably be a better description. Not because scripture was unintelligible on the issue or because I couldn't find a good enough book to read to understand it.

Most of the reason that I was in error in my church situation for much of my Christian life was because I was lazy. And I just didn't search the scripture. I wasn't diligent in seeing what God's word had to say so clearly about how his church ought to be led and governed. It's not terribly mysterious as we've already seen today. And yet there are resources that are incredibly helpful as we seek to understand biblical truth in this area and one of them that has already been mentioned today which I will again commend to your attention is the book by Alexander Stroud, Biblical Eldership.

It is as fine a resource as I know of in this area and it is clear and easy to read and understandable and plain and insightful and rich in application and it's just tremendously helpful. I commend it to your reading. I'll draw on it pretty heavily in my talk today. I won't be able to cite it just for every point of reference that may come to mind that I've read in it. So let me just cite it now.

It's a tremendously helpful work and something that I've really drawn on heavily for my remarks that I'd make to you today about biblical church government. Now, let me just share a personal account about my experience in this regard. I found myself a few years back in a position which I believe many of you would really, frankly, give almost anything to be in. Let me just ask, how many of you here are in a church situation right now where it is troubling to you the kinds of practices that are being taught and that are being engaged in and in which you just see that there's really a need for some change. Lots of hands are going up.

Lots of hands. More hands than I expected in a group of this size. I found myself in the same spot. In this little church that I loved, I mean loved, had been involved in all my life and had deep family roots, and I'll talk to you more about this in the morning. But I found myself in a situation that I think those of you who have raised your hands would just give nearly anything to be in.

I had appealed in that situation to the pastor. And I had asked him to consider some of the areas where it seemed that change was really needed. And instead of the polite meeting that I expected and the blessing and perhaps encouragement and perhaps a shove out the door that I really expected, I was received with courtesy and kindness and courage and humility and openness and a determination to search the Word of God and to please God over man come what may. And this from a man I scarcely knew at the time. We had met a short time before I went to this man and began to just say things to him that if he even considered applying them in his own life, we're almost certain to turn his whole world upside down.

This man who was in charge at this church, the pastor, the top of the corporate pyramid, the man in charge, his first pastorate, after laboring in the Word, after laboring in ministry and in service to the church for many years. Here he is, and here comes this fellow who's he's never seen before. And what an example I received in the character of a godly elder from a man who is now one of my closest and most trusted friends, John Latham. He is here with us today and I'm going to ask John in a few minutes just to offer some remarks and insight about the situation which we then found ourselves in because let me tell you what happened. John listened to me for a year.

We went to lunch once or twice a week. We got together in the evenings. We were together in his home. We were together at his office. We talked about these things.

And we found ourselves shoulder to shoulder in a church just saturated with unbiblical practices and appealing to that church body to change. And the leadership wanted it to happen. He was committed to it happening. He was willing to move forward to see it happen at whatever cost, certain that that's what the word of God required of him as he shepherded and led the flock. And what I'm gonna ask John to talk to us about that in just a few minutes.

And I'm going to ask John to talk to us about that in just a few minutes. Certain that that's what the word of God required of him as he shepherded and led the flock and what I'm going to ask John to talk to us about in just a few minutes is the fact that with all those wonderful things lining up in favor of a church really reforming and turning around and going in a different direction, that it became clear in very short order that we needed to start a new work rather than to try to reform that church. I know many of you are in this situation right now, and I don't want to discourage you. But I will tell you that if a church is not led according to biblical protocol and according to God's economy, If the sheep are doing the job of the shepherd, it's very, very difficult to reform. God's sovereign and I won't say impossible.

I don't know of examples where it's happened, but I can tell you from personal experience that it is very difficult. And you know the first thing that we tried to change? The leadership structure. We looked at scripture and we said, you know, this is not how it is supposed to work. And this is so plain and this is so clear from scripture that surely we can appeal for change in this area and we can get the leadership structure like it ought to be and we can have biblical church government and then once that is in place, we can begin to talk about all these other areas where reform is needed.

And you know, we didn't get through that discussion before it became clear that it was more profitable and far less divisive and just the better thing for us together to start a new work. And I can tell you that John and I have now co-labored together as elders for almost three years, and it has been absolutely the most blessed, glorious church experience that either of us have ever enjoyed. But in the year, year and a half, two years that led up to that, we suffer a lot of heartache, a lot of pain, many, many struggles. Do we need to return to biblical church government? Oh yes, we absolutely, absolutely, absolutely must.

The church does not function where the shepherd doesn't do his job and where the sheep seek to do the job of the shepherd. The church does not function where biblical church government doesn't exist. I'm not sure that the church can be led where biblical church government doesn't exist. God is a God of the methods as well as the results. And good intentions are not.

Where we have adopted a methodology that flies in the face of his word, we cannot expect his blessing. We didn't enjoy it in that situation. Try as we might and try hard we did. God's a God of the method as well as the result. We trust him for the results, but we must be faithful.

We must do our duty when it comes to these methods. I think that the situations that we have seen described today, the situation painted so beautifully by voting. You know, we can't blame at all on the sheep. They're not in the roles that they were designed to be in. In fact, if we're going to assign blame and talk about how we got where we are in so many ways, I think we have to look at leadership, at the shepherds, at the church government, at the elders.

And that's the word that scripture really uses. And let's just define our terms because there's been, really frankly, a tremendous amount of confusion about terms which are used to describe those in leadership in the local church. What do we mean when we talk about biblical eldership? Well, we don't mean what most folks think of when they think of elders. We don't mean an advisory board.

We don't mean a group of influential individuals who may just somehow have good intentions and desire to serve and their qualifications end right about there. We don't mean a board of directors. This is not a corporate CEO kind of a model. That's not what we mean when we talk about biblical elders. That's what Brother Schrock talks about in his book as board elders, but that's not the biblical picture of eldership.

There are far more troubling definitions, which many churches have chosen to deem appropriate in describing elders. I think you know what we're talking about. And it's baffling how we get places sometimes. It's baffling how the church got into the condition that's been described before you today. It's confusing how we got there.

It's baffling how the church has come to put those in leadership positions, pastoring churches, that are just so clearly disqualified from serving according to scripture. What do we mean when we describe biblical eldership? Biblical elders are described in scripture as men with certain qualifications who do certain things in a very particular way. Every one of those words is really significant in that description. It's about as succinct as I know how to get.

Men with certain qualifications who do certain things in a very particular way. They lead the church, teach and preach the word, protect the church, shepherd the church, exhort, admonish, discipline is necessary, they care for the church, they visit the Saints, they pray, they love the church. This is not a detached advisory board serving in some kind of a CEO capacity. It's not a board of directors. It's those who love and shepherd, flock.

Let's consider, just for a few minutes, the roles and characteristics and qualifications and duties of biblical church elders. As Brother Stroud correctly explains, biblical eldership is a servant pastoral leadership provided by qualified men, not a man and not a woman and not a group of women, provided by qualified men, leadership by two or more men. Perhaps that's a more succinct definition. Servant pastoral leadership provided by qualified men. Eldership is a duty for men and men only.

Let's just go ahead and talk about the aspects of biblical church eldership which are likely to be the most controversial, let's start with that one. It's baffling to me how that could be controversial, but it is, it absolutely is, isn't it? And yet scripture is incredibly clear. It's not a sexist or discriminatory position. It's a beautiful, God-designed, complementary position.

And I appreciate so much what's been shared about our equality before the Lord as men and women. Biblical church eldership doesn't fly in the face of that in the least, but it's not egalitarian. There are differences, and biblical eldership is a job for men, and Just like we've been called on earlier today to step up and to act like men, as we seek to return to biblical church government, we've got to stand up and act like men, fill the roles that God has designed in the way that he's designed for them to be filled according to his economy. It's not about a lesser dignity or value in our sisters in the Lord. It's just about a difference in our roles, in our responsibilities.

That difference is pretty obvious, isn't it? What did God make men to do? Didn't he make men to lead and to fight battles? I mean, which of you men didn't have a little fire in your belly after hearing from Vody? Who wasn't ready to run through that wall and play the part of a man?

Men are made to do that. Men are designed to lead, to protect, and to fight battles. And this pattern of male leadership in the church is consistent with every biblical model that we could imagine. Try to think of one with which this would seem to be inconsistent. It's very, very difficult from Adam and Eve to the relationship that existed there, the creation model from God the Father, that is significant.

God the Father to Jesus the Son, that is significant. Jesus the Son. God reveals himself according to this pattern. Men are supposed to lead, to fight battles, to protect. This pattern continues in the New Testament.

As Jesus Christ, the groom is described as the head of his church. The bride and the groom. Christ called and appointed 12 men to serve as apostles. This is not an example that we frequently think of when we think about examples of leadership and how they may relate to church eldership, but the examples of the apostles are incredibly powerful. And they are described as the foundation of the church, with Christ being the cornerstone.

Christ chose not just men, but a plurality of men, 12 men in whose hands he left his church, the apostles. The patterns of church leadership in the New Testament are of male leadership. We could spend more time than we have. In Ephesians 5, as we've already been, in Colossians 3 and Titus 2, where we see marriage patterns, again in the New Testament, with the man leading and protecting, the spiritual leader. And these things are described in Ephesians 532 as pictures of the relationship between Christ and his church, the groom and the bride.

Every model that we could name as we think through who ought to serve as a biblical church elder says that it is to be a man. It's a job for men to stand up. It's a role for men to stand in and provide. We see scriptural discussions of men's likelihood to abdicate their responsibilities. We see in 1 Corinthians 11 and 14, and again in 1 Peter 3, discussions of the relationships between men and women.

We see even in 1 Corinthians 14, description of the woman, the wife, in the meeting of the church, remaining silent. And if she has a question, asking her husband when they're home. Why is that? Because it is consistent with the biblical model, with the pattern throughout the New Testament and the old of male headship. It's consistent with their marriage relationship and their role.

What does that woman say about her husband when she thinks she's got to speak up in the meeting of the church and get her question answered there? Do you think that testifies about the leadership of her husband? Do you think that that dishonors her husband? This is not about the fact that ladies are of a lesser dignity or have less to say or contribute or anything else. It's about the fact that God has an economy by which his church is to be led, by which families are to be led, and it's very, very consistent.

And men, it boils down to this simple truth. Act like men, square your shoulders, step up, be the man. This is our job. Biblical church leadership is the job of men. Biblical eldership is a plural activity.

It is not the job for just one man. It is a job for multiple men. The biblical patterns are just incredibly abundantly clear on this issue. We don't have time to talk about all of them. Let me just summarize quickly for you.

There are, I think, about 18 references to eldership in the New Testament. 15 of them are clearly references to pluralities of elders. Of those 15, seven or eight talk specifically about plural elders in one church. The rest talk about plural elders of the two or three that don't in the least present a picture of a one-man show. There is no inconsistency in the New Testament pattern in this.

It is a job for a plurality It's not a one-man show situation. And there are difficulties in following this model. It is much easier to get something done to get a decision made to move quickly when one man calls all the shots and is in charge of the whole show. It's true. There are reasons that there are times when one man has to be in charge.

You know, we heard about that two-headed monster, kill it or put it under glass. The very definition of two visions trying to lead is division. That's why in the family we see an economy of headship by the man and him having vision. But in leading Christ's church, we see an economy of a plurality of elders, of multiple men in leadership. And it can be slow and frustrating Compared to the one-man show, quick decision, get it done, knock it out, move on to the next task, it can be trying.

You know, it really requires a lot of patience to work with elders. It requires humility. It requires listening to the opinions of others. Sometimes you may not agree with those. You know it requires organization.

You've gotta get it together. If you're going to coordinate decisions among multiple men in leadership, you've got to be organized. You've got to be structured. You've got to be patient. You've got to be humble.

You've got to be respectful. You want to see something break down? Look at men start to treat each other with disrespect as they seek to resolve an issue and work through a problem. Yes, it's more difficult than a one-man show with a single man in charge, but it's God's economy, and it's what he has described for his church, And the benefits far outweigh the challenges. The greatest benefit is that it's God's method.

That pretty much settles it and ends the discussion. It's how God said to do it. It's his method. Period. End of discussion.

There are benefits that we could talk about. Accountability, encouragement, balancing weaknesses among different men, differing strengths, coming to the forefront, the list really goes on and on and on. But it's God's method. And it's his economy. And it's how he says to do it.

And That ends the discussion. It's God's method. I'd like to mention just briefly a concept that is often misunderstood and one which Mr. Stroup really addresses well in his book and it's this concept of first among equals when you have a plurality of leadership. This can be incredibly helpful if it's properly understood.

That doesn't mean that you have what is really a one-man show with a bunch of yes men and a CEO board situation like we've just described as unbiblical. That's how that concept is often misunderstood. But this principle of first among equals can be so incredibly helpful when it's understood in terms of men with different strengths coming forward to do different tasks, when it is understood in its biblical context. And we do, I think, see examples of it from scripture. Do you think of three of the apostles, again, just to draw on that example, who seem to be more prominent than the rest, often.

Peter, James, and John. Sometimes Andrew, even, you see described as singled out, special, somewhat first among equals in different areas. You see that same example in the Apostle Paul. There are times where he really stands out at some level as a first among equal because of how God's giftings work themselves in his life. And we don't have time to spend a whole lot of time on this particular concept, but I want us to just be aware that there may be men of differing strengths who perform different functions.

There may be more gifted teachers and speakers. There may be better administrators. There may be men who are more merciful. There may be, There are so many glorious opportunities when you have plural eldership, not for one man to lord it over the rest, but for among equals those with differing strengths to come to the front. Paul described Peter in scripture as the first one time, but Paul also called Peter and Barnabas down for their hypocrisy.

They weren't set aside as senior pastors or special apostles or given any other special description and they weren't unequal with the rest of the apostles. I think we see from Paul's rebuke of them when they were in error, but they did have strengths. And Peter in particular, go look at your concordance and see how many times Peter's name is mentioned in scripture. Short of Christ, he seems to be the dominant figure in the New Testament in many ways. And it's led to misunderstanding in some churches about his role in the church.

Let's not go there. But he was, I think, among the apostles, one who exemplified that first among equals standing, as he was exhorted to strengthen his brothers and just fulfilled special purposes, but as an equal among the rest of the apostles, just one who had differing strengths. Biblical elderships, we see, is a job for men, and it's a job for a plurality of men, and it's a function which is pastoral. Pastoral. What does that word say to you and what images does that bring to mind for you?

It's a beautiful word to me. It brings to mind an elder and shepherd are words that are used almost interchangeably as we see this description of church leadership. That is such a beautiful, beautiful image. I wish we had a little more time to spend on it. But think of the shepherd and his function.

He protects, he feeds, he leads, he cares for the sheep. You know the best shepherds, you know the greatest characteristic of the best shepherds? They love the sheep. They love the sheep. The hireling runs off when danger looms, but not the shepherd who loves the sheep.

Stroud does such a beautiful job of describing this in his book. I just again commend that to your attention and commend to you the example of David as he shepherded the flock. What did he say whenever he wanted to engage Goliath And was told, oh, you're but a boy. You can't do this. You're not up to the task.

He said when the bear and the lion came and seized the lamb in its mouth and took it away, I went and I grabbed it by its beard. He says, he played the man. And he said, and I slew it, and I took the lamb back, and I'll do the same to this Philistine. Elders are shepherds, and I love the sheep, and that's a job for brave, brave men. It's a job that calls for courage and it's not something for the hireling it's something for the one who loves the sheep and who won't flee when the terrifying predators surround.

We see warning after warning that that's exactly what will happen. We see described in the role of elders their need to protect the flock from ravenous wolves. It is going to happen. If they're not in your assembly now, they will be. Wolves will come.

It's a part of the life of the New Testament church and elders are to protect. They are to work hard, to manage skillfully, and to lead with vision. That's a description of biblical elders, not a detached advisory board that worries about buildings and finances. These men are pastors, they're shepherds. They love the sheep, They're anything but detached.

They're involved in the lives of those that they shepherd. Biblical elders are also servant leaders. Servant leaders. Matthew 11, 29 describes foot washing, gentle, humble servants' heart. We see the same picture painted in Mark 9, 33 through 35, in Matthew 23, in 1 Peter 5, 1 through 5.

I wish we had time just to look at all the scriptures on these things, just make a note of them. They're clear, they're clear. Biblical church leaders are servant leaders. Why is this so important? Consider again with me if you would the example of the apostles.

Of all the folks who should have understood servant leadership, you would think that the apostles would have had it figured out, especially near the end of their time with Christ. And yet what did we see at the Passover supper? What was the topic? Who among us is going to be the greatest? And what did Jesus do?

He served them. He washed their feet. He reminded them that the servant is the greatest of all. A shepherd has got to have a servant's heart. What did James and John ask for that really stirred the rest of the apostles up against them.

You remember what they asked for? They were so bold as to ask for the chief seats in the kingdom of heaven. You remember that? Do you think that men of God might sometimes struggle with being too ambitious? Might sometimes be corrupted by power?

Might sometimes be proud? I think if the apostles struggled with it, we can see why biblical church elders must be men with servants' hearts. It was a glaring problem for the apostles, and it's a problem that we continue to see in the church today, isn't it? Men hungry for power, for prestige, for the spotlight. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, Lord Alton said, that's not the kind of man who ought to be serving as an elder, not a man who desires to lord it over others, as we see described in 1 Peter 5, but one with a servant heart, who understands that he who serves is greater than he who is exalted, who seeks to emulate Christ.

Eldership is not a job for ambitious, competitive, self-seeking men. It's a job for servants, manly servants, nonetheless, not wimps, courageous shepherds with love in their hearts for their flocks, but servant hearts. Not hearts that hunger for power and prestige. Finally, biblical elderships are supposed to be built, biblical elders are supposed to be qualified according to scriptures. Qualified.

There are three chief texts that talk about this and I'd just like to commend them to your attention and talk just a little bit about what they describe in terms of the character of an elder. First Timothy 3, 2 through 7, Titus 1, 6 through 9, and First Peter 5, 1 through 3 all describe the qualifications and the character that a biblical church elder ought to have. 1 Peter 5, 1 through 3 talks about elders who are serving not under compulsion, but voluntarily, not for sordid gain, but with eagerness, nor yet as lording it over, but proving to be examples. I hope that the things we've talked about up to this point will come to your mind as you hear these descriptions of the qualifications of elders. Do you see that servant heart, that one who's not hungry for power, that one who shepherds and loves described in these descriptions?

First Peter 5 actually has the fewest qualifications. 1 Timothy and Titus both list 15 qualifications, which biblically qualified elders ought to possess. Let's just go through them quickly, but I'd like for you to just think about the things we've talked about up to this point and how How they fit with these qualifications of elders first Timothy 3 2 through 7 says that an elders to be above reproach a husband of one wife temperate prudent respectable hospitable able to teach, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, gentle, uncontentious, free from the love of money, one who manages his household well, not a new convert, one with a good reputation with those outside the church. Titus 1 describes elders who are qualified as being, again, above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, hospitable, a lover of what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, one who holds fast the faithful word, both to exhort and to refute error. This is something, the qualifications of elders, that we could literally spend hours, days, weeks talking through.

We've flown through them in just a short period of time, but the descriptions in scripture are just so beautiful and so clear with regard to how elders are to be characterized, with regard to who ought to serve, with regard to how the body ought to be composed, with regard to the attitudes that ought to exist. Scripture really is very plain. And we can't talk about the condition of the church without talking about its leaders. Those students fully trained will be like their teachers, like priests, like people. So we have to think about these things.

And if we care about not just being a movement, but being a part of reformation in the church. If we don't want to burn brightly for a moment and then flame out, If we don't want what we believe in to be looked back upon in history is just another trend and another neat idea and another thing that people got excited about and That then just kind of faded away and what really happened to that? If we want this reformation of the church to have staying power, to succeed, to last beyond ourselves, to be something which our children and our grandchildren and our great grandchildren enjoy, then we must return to biblical church government. It will not succeed otherwise because God is a God of the method. We follow his methods and we leave the results in his hands.

And by his grace, may his church return to biblical church government. May we embrace the truth of his word, the sufficiency of scripture. May we rise up and act like men. May we do what is right before the Lord. By God's grace, may it be so.

It's been a great pleasure to be with you. I would now like, in the time that is remaining, to ask my good friend John Latham, who I have described in this talk a little bit, to come and just give you a little practical discussion about his experience as the man in charge seeking to lead a church in reform where proper church government simply wasn't in place. I haven't said enough to introduce this man. Can I just give you one thought about church elders and working together? They've gotta be on the same page.

They've got to love and trust each other. If someone came to me and said, you know, John Latham said this about you, I would look them in the eye and say, I don't believe it if it was something that was mean and nasty and uncharitable. I flat would because I trust John Latham. He demonstrated a character and a love for the Lord and a humility and a willingness to lose everything, to be ridiculed by those he loved. When I came to him that I just, I can't do justice to in trying to describe him.

And he's a humble fellow and he's not gonna say these things about himself, but I'll just tell you, I could not be more blessed than to labor with my good friend John Latham, and I really think that he'll have some insights that may be helpful as we seek to illustrate this point we made about the importance and returning to biblical church government. I will keep my comments brief. I do want to disagree with Don, although we are in agreement most of the time, as he said. I do want to disagree with him a lot. One thing he said, and that was I was the man in charge.

I grew up Southern Baptist. Went to Southern Baptist College and Southern Baptist Seminary. All I've ever known up until the last three years was congregational church governments. If you don't know much about Southern Baptist, most Southern Baptist churches are congregational. What that means is that ultimately the people in charge are those who show up for the business meeting.

That's the truth. It took me two years as Southern Baptist pastor to figure that out. But I finally did. So when Don says he was having lunch and having meetings and discussing the problems of the church and solutions for the problems of the church and dealing with the man in charge, he was really not accurate. If that had been the case, there would probably be no North Gabriel Christian Assembly.

We'd still be at the old church, and things would be different. Our problem wasn't that we didn't recognize the issues and problems and things need to be changed. Our problem was that we didn't know the biblical solutions. So we had the privilege of being at the very first Family Integrated Church Conference three years ago in St. Louis, while we're still at the Southern Baptist Church.

We had the benefits of not just my being on staff, being the senior pastor, but months before that, I brought Don on staff alongside me to be an associate pastor. We had every advantage. We knew what the scriptures taught us. We were convinced, mostly courageous, more so Don than me, as you can tell. But we were not in charge.

Our example, our testimony of that trial and error is a great example of why what Don has taught today needs to be practiced in churches. For me, it was a change. Because all of my experience from the time I was little growing up in a college and seminary and all my ministry experience was in congregational churches. I remember being an eight nine ten year old little boy and voting and telling the church what they ought to do with their money All in favor. Aye.

Aye. I have no idea what I said I to you but let's go for it. I'll tell you some of the ridiculousness that is in large part a lot of the churches. I don't know about other church governments but in the churches I've been a part of that we dealt with. Was it although I was a senior pastor that we had a person on staff that had a moral failure.

In order to deal with that young man with this moral failure, I couldn't take him aside and deal with him myself. He had to go before the personnel committee and they had to deal with him. The personnel committee was chaired by a woman and was largely made up of women. So I had grown men in ministry and pastoral positions under the leadership of women. If we looked at the church and said the church has a problem, here it needs to be changed there, the question wasn't what I'm not saying that we can't do it.

I'm saying that we can't do it. I'm saying that we can't do it. The question wasn't what would the Lord have us do. It was what committee should we talk to? I did find a search of scriptures trying to figure out why Southern Baptists do what they do and organize the way they were organized and governed the way they were governed.

I did least one example of the committee, and it was the 12 that went into the promised land and came back and said to Moses, we can't do it. And they wandered for 40 years. You think FEMA is slow in responding to a crisis? You ought to be part of the Southern Baptist Church. The committee on committees would still right now be mean to decide what kind of committee to create to respond to the crisis.

That's what we dealt with. We have to have proper church government because the church, even as it is somewhat reformed, as we heard this morning, always reforming, we will still have crisis. We'll get other bridges to cross, other things to change, other opportunities for the Lord to open our eyes and show us where the church ought to be changed and if we still have improper church government, we'll find ourselves back here three years with another type of conference and another type of problem starting all new churches all over again. The power of reformation needs to be that we examine the leadership structure of the church. When Don and I sat down and looked at the scripture and said it's very plain what we ought to do, We looked at the situation we were in and said, well, at least we had the senior pastor going for us.

Because the church government was in error, because we were not following the biblical pattern, it failed. The opposite of that I can tell you is a praise is that the church government we're in now is what Don has described. We have plurality. There's two. It's barely plural, but it's plural.

Sometimes it's one and a half, but it's still plural. I'm the half. It's not perfect. It's blessed. I pray that you will be with me in the next few weeks.

I pray that you will be with me in the next few weeks. It's blessed. When things come up, we pray together. We talk together. We discuss it with the men of the church.

We make prayerful, God honoring biblical decisions. There's no committee to go through. I don't have to poll the 7-year-olds of the church to find out what we ought to do. I pray for the church to find out what we ought to do. I pray for the church to find out what we ought to do.

We look at the scriptures, we pray together and we move forward together. I praise the Lord for what he's done in my life the last three years and what he taught me in the years before that and I pray and hope that God will continue to use this conference, continue to use the pastor's ears he's done today, encourages us to search the scriptures, in particular in this area of church government, that we can continue to be reforming good moral beings of Christ. And I thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for your attention this morning, this afternoon. Thank you.

And now I would like to introduce our panelists. Please join me in thanking them. This afternoon. Thank you, John. Thank you, Don.

Any questions for these men? Yes, in the back. How do we go about practicing, how do we go about determining who is qualified? And is there a reasonable timeframe in which we should set our sights on? If we decide they are going to be the elders, should we want to go to one of the ways for the years?

What's reasonable? I think we're going to have to get through this. I think we're going to have to get through this. I think we're going to have to get through this. So how do we go about choosing and then how long should it take?

I think one of the great challenges of something like what we're involved in is that we may really tend to get too eager to start a church and have elders. And we have another conference on how to start churches, And I think we'll hear some more about that later. But better to go too slow than too fast. Better to have provisional leadership for a season than to appoint the wrong men to serve as elders. Better to go too slow than to go too fast.

And a church can start and a church can exist and a church can be legitimate with provisional leadership, with the men coming together to provide counsel. A church can go at a reasonable pace and be a legitimate God-honoring church without getting in too big a hurry. So I don't have a perfect number. I think we ought to be moving diligently forward in seeking who the Lord would raise up as elders, but that needs to happen in his time and not necessarily ours all the time. And so my view is better to go a little too slow than to go too fast.

And look at scripture. It's really clear about who's qualified to serve as elders. But what happens sometimes is it becomes a process where people are a little too kind, and maybe that's not possible, but people defer a little too much to those who might desire to be elders. Elders need to be examined, really examined by the church where they will serve. And it's not a rubber stamp process.

We need to look at all these qualifications we've talked about and ask hard questions and an elder is not someone who we choose based on a resume who looks the best on paper. The normal pattern for an elder is for him to be someone who we know and who we know well and whose family we know and who we know these things about and if we don't we and we need to keep on asking questions. So that's... You know, I've got a couple church planting buddies. One of them says he doesn't want elders to be established for two years because you can't really know a guy inside of two years.

Another friend of mine says it ought to be six to eight months, shouldn't be quite that long. Well, scripture doesn't really give us any timeframes. I think we need to understand that for sure. And so wisdom needs to be applied in a situation like that. You know, who should be those who'd be considered?

Well, aspiration is definitely one. We look for men who in their hearts say this is something I desire to do. So there needs to be an aspiration to be an elder. And then the second thing is confirmation. A confirmation among the brothers that are there in that church.

And I do so agree with Don that yes, there can be a provisional period of time where a church meets and before elders are formally established. There were churches in the island of Crete and Paul sent one of his top men to go and appoint elders in every city there. And, you know, that, what that assumes is that there were people meeting, there were churches meeting together without elders. And Paul didn't command that those churches stop meeting until they get elders. That wasn't the direction.

The direction was to appoint elders. Now did that happen in one moment of time? He walks in and appoints the elders and leaves town. I don't, I just can't imagine that that was the way that it happened. Of course we're not told, but I don't know.

I hope those guidelines are helpful. Yes. We believe those terms are synonymous that they describe one type of person. And then of course there are other ministries of men. God gives men to the church to minister, pastors, teachers, evangelists, those kinds of things.

But for the office of elder, pastor, we take those as synonymous terms and not distinct. I'm going to take that one. I'm going to take that one. Plurality of preachers, I guess I'll take that one first. In our church, yes, we do believe that means the plurality of preachers.

And these, you know, our elders are qualified and ready to preach. Let's see. To preach. Let's see, how, I guess I want to exalt the idea that we have a plurality of preachers. It's great for the church, for one thing, because it helps the church to wean themselves from one talking head.

And it helps them to be focused on the word, not a personality. It also allows you to equip and train your men. And if you have elders that won't get out of the way, or if you have one man that won't get out of the way for the other elders, I think you have a, you've got a problem. It's a problem for the man and it's a problem for the church. So I mean, I praise the idea of a multiplicity of preachers in the church.

I've just seen it do wonders for our men and for our people. Our people love the voice of another man in the pulpit because for a lot of different reasons, It balances them out, it exercises their own faith, it helps them to trust the word. But here's another thing that it does. It allows them to see a man grow like they've never seen him grow before. Here's one thing that happens.

You've got a man in the church who's never preached, but he's qualified, and he's increasingly demonstrating the ability and the giftedness to do this. And so he is going to preach in the church. He wraps his whole family around this. He has his little daughter and his eight-year-old son and his 12-year-old daughter praying for him on the floor, on their faces, begging God to help their father. So, and anyway, I...

That's what my family's doing right now. I'd like to talk about that more maybe at some other point because I have some strong convictions about how important that is for the church because I've seen it flourish so many good things. And not everyone who preaches or teaches has to be an elder. There can be men who are very gifted teachers and preachers and expositors of the word who may not be qualified. They may be more in the form of serving as an evangelist.

But my understanding of the New Testament model of the church is a participatory event. Not one man saying everything and everyone else sort of sitting back and being fed everything. Men coming ready to bless the body and to share something from the Lord for the good of the order. And so I wholeheartedly agree with Scott on multiple elders preaching. We split the duties almost exactly, John and I do.

And as more men come on, we'll share those duties with them. You know, I cannot wait to get back to our church on Sunday morning, but I'm not preaching. I cannot wait to come and hear the man who's gonna preach. Okay, anybody else? No.

I don't, I'm sorry. I don't think it's a chairman of the elder board sort of an approach or philosophy. You've got to be careful in that application that you don't turn, don't slip right back to the misunderstood description of elders, that you don't have sort of a group of figureheads who really are yes men for the man who has the most powerful personality, who is the most gifted speaker, who has the most dynamic leadership skills. They're gonna be men like that in an eldership. But I don't see the biblical pattern in scripture of them ever being separated and given a distinct office, called a chairman.

Those things are things that occur naturally and leadership roles that they fill naturally, but not by being set apart different from the rest of the elders. You really gotta emphasize the equal part on that. So we take advantage and enjoy the different giftings and we may have, John and I may be first between equals in different areas. One area he's stronger in, another area I may be. One area I'm weaker and he steps in and makes up for that.

He doesn't have near the weaknesses that I do. I'm grateful for John. Heavy on the equal part, careful about the chairman, the special title, the one who really is revered above the rest of the elders. A genuine plurality is a group of men who are genuinely equal. I'm sorry.

Oh no, no exactly. That's exactly what I would want to say. But here's a question. Where does the idea come from that you gotta have a guy in church leadership who gets the last vote? Where do you get that idea?

Well, you just don't get it from the Bible. You have to get that so we have to go somewhere else to get that idea and and and you go to what might be regarded as common wisdom regarding you know leading organizations or it's it's a corporate business model idea it's not a biblical idea and so you know we have to ask ourself where do we get the idea of first among equals? It describes a reality in one way because all are gifted exactly the same way that Don had just articulated. And one man might rise or one man might try to rise. But let's don't pretend that this is a biblical idea.

It's an idea that might come out of our hearts. An idea might come out of corporate business philosophy. And it might be an idea that comes out of the military or something like that. But the qualifications for elders are key. And elders do defer to one another.

So I hope that helps. Another. Yes. What about the outside unions? Are unions all equal or are there a lot of people?

What about the government? In Act 17, the point is that our unions buy around people like the Parliament or the Senator or anything like that. Right. Again, I think the same principle applies. Where do you get the idea of the chairman of the deacons?

Or where do you get the idea of length of service? We can come up for reasons why service should be a certain length, but let's don't pretend that it comes from the Bible. It comes out of other thoughts, other thoughts that might come from some form of human wisdom, but we wouldn't want to claim authority for any of those thoughts. Any more? Yes.

I have a question on the qualifications part. That is that, you know, the thing I'm thinking about is like other people would say I'm a person with a good character, and I qualify, you ask them I'm fine, but nobody better, she knows I'm a quick-tumber, and I've got those problems. So should I, even though I aspire to, Well, yeah, I think that, you know, wisdom has to be applied in a situation like that. If your wife says you're quick-tempered and a lover of money, you shouldn't be an elder. I think that might be a tip-off, but and if she's wrong, then you don't have your household in order.

One thought I'd offer also though, in my experience, the men who think they're not qualified generally come closer to being qualified and the men who really seem to think they are, probably are in need of some more work. And so I'm encouraged to see a spirit of humility about that, and John and I would quickly tell you that as well as we know ourselves and as well as our wives know us, we know so many ways in which we just fail miserably. And it is a job for qualified men, not a job for perfect men. And again, the whole plurality concept speaks to that. There are gonna be weaknesses.

That's one of the reasons for having a plurality of elders to help make up for these and strengthen each other. And so I like the humility of your heart and would say if you have a sense of, you know, I'm qualified, why haven't they chosen me? There's probably a problem. If you just, if fear and trembling, the Lord's probably getting you ready. Yeah, I'm in favor of having husbands and wives coming and being part of the interview process.

So a wife can speak. Wives tend to ask more questions. Wives tend to ask very difficult questions, wives tend to ask questions that men will never ask and so it can be very helpful. I think it's very important for a wife to be involved. And again, I think wisdom just has to be consulted in situations like this because there aren't hard and fast rules.

What does it mean for a man to be qualified? It's obvious it doesn't mean he's perfect in these areas, but how imperfect can he be? I think that these are things that must be weighed and carefully considered and prayed about among the people who are involved. It's not a science. It's not a perfect science.

It's a kind of situation where you seek the Lord and something that seems right to you. It's not a perfect science. It's a kind of situation where I think that's kind of how it works. We spent three days with Brother Stroud, two or three days just talking through these different issues. There's so many definitions and great questions that really, it wasn't enough time.

And so I don't wanna pretend that we've really given any kind of a comprehensive view here. There are so many details. What does it mean for a man to have believing children? Does that mean that John and I should not be serving as elders because we have little ones who are too young to say yes or no, much less I was blind and now I see. Or there's an element in that word that is used there for believing children of dutiful.

And so there's so many things we could talk about with regard to working through these definitions and understanding the meanings of these various words. Some would hold that if your children aren't old enough to clearly be professing Christians with fruit in their life, you ought not serve as an elder. Alexander Stroud made a terrific point that eldership is draining and tiring and takes an awful lot of energy. And he has such experience in this. He said, you've got to have young men being prepared and stepping forward.

And it's not just a role for the very aged. It is a maturity question. And so there's just so many. I see we have another question here, and I didn't mean to interrupt, but there are so many wonderful discussions we could have on the issues as your questions are demonstrating.